Posts by Muddy Waters

38

Please can we all have a go at describing and celebrating our different NEW IDENTITIES, versus our OLD WBTS IDENTITY?

by Fernando in

at one time most of us here identified as jws who follow the wbts gb/fds who claim to follow the bible etc.

some of us are journeying to a new identity, others may feel they already have a new identity.. although we likely have gone in many different directions, we share a common past which only ex-members can really understand and explain.

please could we each respectfully share and celebrate our unique perspectives of where we have come from, and where we each are now at on this journey?.

Muddy Waters

Terry, that was an AWESOME post. You said,

" Once disfellowshipped or after having "faded" we are mentally and psychologically "under house arrest" for an extended period of time.

The pressure is almost unbearable.

We have lost something HUGE: a firm grasp on the ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY and Authority behind it.

Going from one end of the absolute (Truth) to the other end---(uncertainty and dread) is a whiplash.

How do you scratch THAT itch?

Some become born-again so that God can utterly forgive them, love them, accept them.

Some become raging iconoclasts with fangs and claws bared.

Others keep going over the "scene of the crime" looking for clues as to what went wrong.

It takes time to become WHO YOU REALLY ARE."

I am SO experienceing this right now. Going from certaintly and absoluteness and total trust in what you thought you knew -- to nothing. To being without clarity or focus. Feeling adrift, alone, betrayed. It IS just like a whiplash. I've developed a stupid nervous tic near my eye and feel much despair and anguish. I can only hope this painful process of trying to figure things out does not take me too long!

Thank you for your post.

- Muddy

18

March 1st WT

by undercover in

there's an article in the new public edition entitled, "should you trust your first impressions?".

in the article there's the sub-headings, "judging by appearance" and "appearances can be deceptive".

the main import of the article is to impress upon the non-jw to not pre-judge jws based on pre-convieved notions.

Muddy Waters

After years of analyizing the pictures in the publications, especially for the WT study, I note this:

NONE of the others (can you gues which one is not like the others, Sesame Street song playing in my head, but I digress) anyway, NONE of the others have a BIBLE. Meaning that they don't use the Bible, or misuse it, or some such. The JW is the only one holding (thus properly using) the scriptures. Or maybe he's holding a Proclaimer's book...... ha.

Also, they are all standing in front of their giant fancy buildings, buildings which prominently display a cross, while the JW stands in front of..... nope, no giant WT buildings, just some blurry shadow, though he is pictured as standing in a path of LIGHT, while the others stand in shadows and are in comparative darkness.

Wow, I should be at that WT study, LOL. ;)

- Muddy

PS -- not to change the subject, but HOW in the world do I change my avatar?

31

The Governing Body was at the meeting tonight

by wannabefree in

i gave in and went to the meeting tonight.

first thursday meeting in a couple of months ...

the whole congregation bible/book study was praise and worship of the governing body!.

Muddy Waters

Hm. I find this most interesting, especially the service meeting part. I wonder if Acts 10 was used by other brothers (following an outline?) to say the same thing, about "accepting changes from the faithful slave, even when shocking." !!!!!

This makes me wonder if they're preparing us for some "new light" or new announcements…..

And yes, Azazel, the average JW has no clue who the GB are! It's quite a mystery to most. They may know or recognize one or two names or faces, but in my experience that's about it!

17

Am only now discovering/reading the Apocrypha

by Muddy Waters in

i was never a born-in jw, got baptized when i was 20 after being raised and belonging to a denomination of a protestant church.

so i never even knew that there was a "catholic" bible or extra bible books (the authenticity of their belonging in the canon or not is a debatable issue, and one i certainly have no answers about it!).

i knew through my study with jws that there were some "extra" books written, but since i believed everything the wt said hook, line, and sinker, i just went along with their explanation that they were not part of the bible canon.

Muddy Waters

WOW, you guys are so AWESOME!!!! THANK YOU for all the links to such great sites and resources. Sorry for not getting back to you all sooner, was away for most of the day.

STRYMECKIRULES, I loved that site: sacred-texts.org !! I've ordered some of the info already, lol. The site is HUGE and has so much information, I could be reading forever. Amazing what's out there!! Thank you!!

BELLA: I am quite loving the book of Sirach! Is Judith the one where somebody went blind after a birdie pooped in his eyes? Maybe that's Tobit…. I'll have to take another look at Judith. What are your thoughts about it? (excuse me if I still sound like I'm at a JW meeting, LOL!)

SHANA: Wow, that's quite a link as well which you recommended. I have definitely bookmarked it and am starting to check it out. It's neat having so many historical writings, unbelievable because I never knew until now just how much is out there! It would take a dozen lifetimes to go through everything. Funny how the Catholics took stuff out, and the Protestants took stuff out that the Catholics left in…… hmph. It really is up to the individual to make up their own mind, isn't it. Thank you as well for your link and recommendations. :)

SERENITYNOW: Ha, had to laugh because when I went into the store and bought a Catholic bible, I was really feeling like I was doing something very bad. When I saw those extra books in the Bible, I was wondering if the bible would burst into flames or something. But my curiosity overcame my fear, and even as I began reading, my mind was very critical and closed off. I am still filtering so much stuff through a JW "lens", it will take a long time, I suspect, for anything to begin having clarity or non-bias.

AZAZEL: (ha, your name! The goat that wandered off into the wilderness…!) The NWT is still so familiar to me that when I read another translation, I have to constantly compare it to verses I'm familiar with from that text. And many times I've been surprised to see an almost totally different meaning! The very expressions in the NWT are misleading and quite biased (the word "apostate" in the NWT is translated as "godless" in many other versions, for example. And when the NWT says "nations", most other translations use "Gentiles". Again, a whole different shade of meaning!) And THANK YOU for the link to e-sword. I've downloaded it to my computer (had to get another program to open it, as I use a mac). It looks AWESOME (seems like I'm using that word a lot, LOL!) I can't wait to use this program more fully. Thank you again!

MORBIDZBABY: That's amazing about your mom finding the NWT so difficult to read after using your NIV! Right now I'm finding I quite like the NRSV, it's so crisp and concise (am so used to the wordiness of the NWT, it feels like a breeze, like a totally different Bible!) It's also very weird that the GB/Society discourages us from using other translations! That just bogglers my mind.

Again, thank you all so much for your great replies, insights, recommendations, experiences, sharing which Bible versions and apocryphal books you enjoy, and the fantastic websites.

17

Am only now discovering/reading the Apocrypha

by Muddy Waters in

i was never a born-in jw, got baptized when i was 20 after being raised and belonging to a denomination of a protestant church.

so i never even knew that there was a "catholic" bible or extra bible books (the authenticity of their belonging in the canon or not is a debatable issue, and one i certainly have no answers about it!).

i knew through my study with jws that there were some "extra" books written, but since i believed everything the wt said hook, line, and sinker, i just went along with their explanation that they were not part of the bible canon.

Muddy Waters

I was never a born-in JW, got baptized when I was 20 after being raised and belonging to a denomination of a Protestant church. So I never even knew that there was a "Catholic" Bible or extra bible books (the authenticity of their belonging in the canon or not is a debatable issue, and one I certainly have no answers about it!)

I knew through my study with JWs that there were some "extra" books written, but since I believed everything the WT said hook, line, and sinker, I just went along with their explanation that they were not part of the Bible canon.

(Did anyone notice that in a recent WT study article, from a couple of weeks ago or so, they had a reference to 1 Maccabbees!)

Well, I've gone and picked up a bunch of different Bible translations (am finding the NWT to be very clumsy and weirdly worded, eg. Eph. 6:4, about bringing children up in the discipline and mental regulating of Jehovah... Ph. 2:6, about Jesus giving no consideration to a seizure that he would be equal to God, and many other examples).

I've got the NRSV with APROCRYPHA and the New Jerusalem Bible and the Douhey-Rheims (might have spelled that wrong) and the NIV, Amplified Bible and NAS, lol.... that should keep me busy for awhile.

Anyway, I've been reading the Aprocrypha and while some of the books are a bit strange to me, I am finding that I'm really liking 1 Maccabbees and a book called "Sirach"! Sirach is like Proverbs with more etiquette.... very interesting stuff. I don't know if these books belong in the bible canon or not, but to me, they are ancient writings and are very interesting and historical! They do seem to add a lot of insight (and violence and bloodshed, etc., all the things you'd expect from the OT) and neat viewpoints. Am actually enjoying these writings very much!

26

Hello from Muddy Waters

by Muddy Waters in

well, here's some of my story.

(am leaving out a lot of personal details.).

but i was prompted to look outside the wt because i'd been having doubts and questions for a long time.

Muddy Waters

Thank you all so much for your warm welcome and kind words! I still have to be careful what I say and write because my husband is still a JW and I fear discovery (I'm sure some of you know how that is!)

All kinds of "new things" are entering my mind (hope you don't mind bearing with me as I share this). One of these things is the way I'm beginning to view other people! Suddenly people "in the world" don't seem so evil and horrible and deluded as I've always been led to believe. (well, okay, maybe some people are, but you know what I mean!) I'm becoming way less judgmental of people, and yet when I was an active JW I never even realized I was so arrogant and judgmental!! (You know, the tolerant, patient smile you put on your face whenever you have to deal with "worldly" people, as you smugly feel superior and special….. not that we're supposed to feel that way, but now I realize I was full of that stupid attitude!)

I've a long way to go, a long road ahead to find some kind of closure and clarity and it's very frightening. I've been posting on another forum as well where I've found all kinds of support and help and understanding. There are wonderful people out there! "Apostates" aren't the vicious evil people I've been told they are, my computer hasn't blown up, but I have developed a tic near my eye. Hm.

And oh yes, Ding, I am totally reading the lighter stuff of the bible, mostly Paul's letters. I'm finding that even reading the first four books of the NT (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John) is too much a strain, trying to figure out Jesus' words. I'd rather have Paul try to explain it for me right now, lol.

And also, Ding, thank you for making yourself available to PM, I do appreciate that. :)

Tec/Tammy, I found your reply very loving and soothing! Most kind words. I was baptized when I was 20, and now, 30 years later (and getting to be an old lady!) I'm starting to un-submerge all those questions I had and unfaithful thoughts. I've been doing a fade for quite a while… Have you been out for awhile? Were you raised a JW? (Thank goodness my kids never got baptized!!! I am so very thankful for that now!!)

Ziddina, I also thank you for your kind welcome and words. Nice to feel that all this confusion I'm feeling is *normal*, even if I sure don't feel normal! :)

Mummatron, yes that's one horrible book. I asked my grown-up kids about that book and they still remember those pictures! They were so scared of some of those pictures. They have very vivid memories of all those depictions of death and destruction. No wonder they were always afraid to fall asleep without a night light on! My poor little kids…..

JW Gone Bad… I wish I could say more of the things that happened and the harsh edicts the JC pronounced on me, but am very leery of giving too much away. The elders were extremely unfair and had no shred of compassion. It was very shocking to me and went way beyond the things written.

Interested One: Yes, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about with the bible story book! Horrid! How can they depict people SMILING at so many people being killed?? Even the Bible says that Jehovah takes no delight in the death of the wicked. So I really don't get these terrible illustrations.

Mouthy, I had to laugh at your post, and your name!! And thank you also for such kind and insightful words. It is very hard to pray right now, I don't even know to whom to address my prayer! But hopefully that will come as I try to figure it out. I will strive to keep a sense of humor and think of you when I get too overwhelmed.

Black Sheep, no worries! I am in NO HURRAY to get into anything!! I am feeling right now that nobody or religion can ever say they have all the answers! The prophets who had their dreams didn't even know what their dreams meant, and the disciples, who had Jesus walking right among them, didn't even understand what he was saying most of the time!! So I think if God really wanted us to figure it all out, things would be a little more spelled out for us… (I feel kinda scared writing that last sentence, like speaking blasphemy….)

New Chapter, it feels so good not to be alone in this! Because of course there's NOBODY to talk to about these things, I'm even afraid to say anything to my own husband!! Isn't that terrible. And yet Jesus disciples questioned among themselves when they didn't understand something he said (which was quite often!) The WT has a really good hold on us (or did) and I still feel very much the weight of it.

And Blind Willie McTell…. yes, Muddy Waters is an excellent performer! Love the blues! And it's also a fitting name for me right now, as the formerly crystal and pure waters (that I thought was the truth) have become all churned about and mucked up!

26

Hello from Muddy Waters

by Muddy Waters in

well, here's some of my story.

(am leaving out a lot of personal details.).

but i was prompted to look outside the wt because i'd been having doubts and questions for a long time.

Muddy Waters

Hi everyone! Well, here's some of my story. (Am leaving out a lot of personal details.)

But I was prompted to look outside the WT because I'd been having doubts and questions for a long time. After being DF'd and then re-instated, I never recovered "spiritualy" from that experience. The elders went WAY BEYOND what is written and were very harsh in their judgements and pronouncements. That had always bothered me, but I just figured I needed to follow their direction. But now it makes me really really angry and upset.

And then things changed within the society and their teachings… the generation thing… the blood-fractions thing…. none of this made sense to me any more.

Yes, I fought my doubts. Prayed about it. Didn't want to "run ahead" of Jehovah's organization, be presumptuous, be questioning glorious ones, stepping out of place, etc. (HA! "Glorious ones!!")

But as I thought more and more about it, I would get more and more upset. When I did talk to the elders (about my poor meeting attendance and discouragement) I was told to go to meetings and strive for more field service. Just more treadmill. Oh, and that they missed me.

Funny what really got me researching outside the WT organization, was my own little grandchildren. I was going to give them a copy of "My Book of Bible Stories" when I REALLY SAW, as if for the first time, THE HORRIBLE PICTURES in that book. (I don't know how I didn't see this with my own dear little children! That book is a horror-show! Terrible, nightmarish stuff for little children!!)

I realized I DID NOT WANT my little grandchildren to look at this book!!! It made me feel that the GB/Society really didn't know about little kids and how to draw them to Jehovah. And with that first thought, "questioning the wisdom of the GB", it led to other (unfaithful) thoughts. And that's when I started "being bad" and looking up stuff on the internet.

My research also led me to read Ray Franz's books... and WOW. That sent me reeling and into a headspin. I am now reading many other books (Captives of a Concept is one) and feeling actually a bit lost right now.

I feel like I spent 30 years of my life "knowing the truth" and thinking I'd really found God and had answers, and am now back to square one. So it's been tough emotionally... I've had a disturbing dream of walking (through the streets of New York, for pete's sake!) and crying out, "Jehovah, where are you? Where are you, Jehovah?" and feeling all lost and not knowing where the heck to turn.

I've been reading different translations of the Bible (not that it helps, still confused as can be) but am trying to gain some clarity. It's all uphill right now. Hope I don't sound too pathetic! :)

17

Is this true? We're not and never have been JW's??

by Muddy Waters in

(i posted this on another forum, but am reposting here to see what you all think!

thank you for bearing with me.

.... in one book, "the watchtower's coming crisis" by daniel rodriguez (amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/watchtowers-comin ... 606&sr=1-4 ).

Muddy Waters

(I posted this on another forum, but am reposting here to see what you all think! Thank you for bearing with me. :)

...

In one book, "The Watchtower's Coming Crisis" by Daniel Rodriguez (amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Watchtowers-Comin ... 606&sr=1-4 )

it mentions that the name/title "Jehovah's Witnesses" is ONLY APPLIED to the annointed! The rest of us (coming to the organization after 1935) are just their "companions, other sheep, great crowd, jonadab class..." This is according to various Watchtowers and publications:

...

"... in the year 1931, the anointed remnant embraced the Scripturally backed designation 'Jehovah's Witnesses'." - Paradise Restored to Mankind - by Theocracy!, 1952, page 105.

And Rodriguez says (on pages 10 & 11), "The anointed remnant are those of the original 144,00 Jehovah's Witnesses who remain alive. Therefore, the name Jehovah's Witnesses only applies to them.

"Thus no real gathering and organizing of these marked ones, the "other sheep" was encouraged, even in the year 1931, when the remnant of the 144,000 spiritual Israelites embraced the name Jehovah's witnesses. " - The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1966, p 119.

Rodriguez: "Four years after the "remnant" of the 144,000 adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931, they were further identified as the faithful and discreet slave. Those who came to the Watchotwer after 1935 became known as the other sheep , NOT Jehovah's Witnesses. This is why those at your door are not truly Jehovah's Witnesses if they came to the Watchtower after 1935. The following quote further clarifies this distinction between the two classes:"

"After all, Revelation 12:17 warns us that Satan is "waging war" with the anointed remnant. Because of their close association with the anointed, the "other sheep" are likewise targets of Satan's wrath." - Watchtower, Aug. 15, 2001, p. 25.

...

Well, I'm just gobsmacked! If we (great crowd) are NOT really JW's, this just blows my mind. I got to thinking about the two baptism questions we are asked. The second one goes something like, "...this step of baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization..." or something like that.

So the baptismal question never directly says we BECOME one of Jehovah's Witnesses, just that we become identified as one!! This is really obtuse language, because "being identified as one" can mean anything! It can mean we are perceived that way by people outside the organization, who, for the most part, are unaware of the two separate classes of JW's, and it can also mean we see eachother that way, even if we're really not!! (did that last part make sense?)

So then I got further thinking... if a person is DF'd or DA's himself, the announcement is made, "So and so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses."

(BIG AH HA MOMENT HERE!) Do you see it??? Do you see this makes no sense? If we're not "officially" one of JW's (because we're not of the annointed), then how can it be said in this announcement that "we're no LONGER one of JW's"...??? It's because the society KNOWS that most of us have no awareness of this little tiny detail so they can just tell us this, based on our incorrect perception of what we really are (or aren't) and make this pronouncement upon us.

Well, I'm sure any lawyer or legal team can tell you that so much of the law depends on these little tiny details and niggling facts, words, or phrases. (Of course, all they have to do to change this is to announce that so-and-so is no longer identified as one of JW's if they want to get down to the nitty-gritty of the matter.

I guess what I really want to know here is whether this is still a WT teaching -- that ONLY the anointed are truly known as Jehovah's Witnesses (according to the society)...??

4

I Had A Dream About My iPhone Last Night.

by Philadelphia Ponos in

jw
friends

first time in my life i had a dream about an object.

i've been experiencing many weird emotions every since i purcahsed this "phone".

i'm starting to understand the religious element that comes with owning apple products.

Muddy Waters

Eee, I certainly don't like the avatar this site generated for me! Brains popping out, mouth open and screaming, boinging around on a spring, and eyes all in hypnotic confusion (well, that part may be true, LOL!) How do I change my avatar?

4

I Had A Dream About My iPhone Last Night.

by Philadelphia Ponos in

jw
friends

first time in my life i had a dream about an object.

i've been experiencing many weird emotions every since i purcahsed this "phone".

i'm starting to understand the religious element that comes with owning apple products.

Muddy Waters

Haha, "once you go mac, you never go back!" I've been a mac geek for over a decade!

Even bought stock in apple after I fell head over heels in love with my iMac (and yes, after carefully researching all the publications and Watchtowers about buying stock, LOL!) And now I have the iPhone and the iPad, and have "converted" all of my family and some of my friends to mac. (Did a better job of converting them to apple products than witnessing to them! What does that say....!) :)

Funny this is my first post here, though have been lurking for some time.